What Does One Say to a Person Who Says These Things?

On August 22, I received the following comments on my weblog. Bold print = emphasis mine.

I am not correcting any of his mistakes or typos—which speak for themselves—though I did add paragraph breaks for easier parsing.

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August 22, 2007 2:58:38 PM PDT

A new comment from “Fred” was received on the post “In Which I Am a Cynic” of the weblog “I Heart Farms”.

Comment:
My favorite post is right on the mark: 20. Posted by scryer_360 on Thu, Jun 28, 2007, 8:59 am PDT

To the guy who asked about Organic Milk: do not buy it! To be organic, a product must come straight from the farm to the grocer shelve, only stopping for packaging. That means Organic milk is going to be unpastuerized!

And to the BS pserson saying "doesn't it make you feel better that you can pronounce" the ingredients: it should not! Notice how that organic spinach was pulled from shelves? IT was organic, the company that produced it admitted it, and WholeFoods did too. Ask yourself this: when was the last time you read about someone dying from the pesticides in a food? Now ask this: when was the last time food poisoning killed someone? What most people do not know is that most plants naturally produce their own pesticides. Where do you think humans got them? We just came up with the stuff? No, we refined and produced existing ones, from the plants. As for bacteria: non organics will be covered in less. Why? Because those foods are irradiated to kill the bacteria. Thats what the processing does.

For a final word: I currently am at school at Missouri State University. Our professors in the subjects of Botany and Agriculture have both stated that there is no scientific basis for Organic foods to be healthier than Conventionally grown foods. I took a course on Botany, and will say now that nutrient density is not based on the amount of pesticide sprayed. The words straight from my professors mouth: "The Organic craze is nothing but un-researched, hippy-spread bull****." Believe organic is better for you all you want. And believe too that mom-and-pop farmers do not use pesticide. I live in such a place that I know many farmers, and many people studying agriculture. Ask any Professor of Botany, Biology, or Agriculture the truth about the organics craze.

Commenter name: Fred
Commenter email: [email protected]

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August 22, 2007 3:08:59 PM PDT
A new comment from “Fred” was received on the post “In Which I Am a Cynic” of the weblog “I Heart Farms”.

Comment:
Oh, by the way, organic is wasteful. Quit trying to move us backwards to the past. Oraganic is a scam along the same lines as: oxygenated fuels freon free airconditioning the RoHS initiative battery powered Prius type vehicles These items all cost more, pollute more and are less effective..why do people like you push this stuff?!!

Commenter name: Fred
Commenter email: [email protected]

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I said:

This is the most hilarious bunch of B.S. I've read in a long, long time.

To those who say, "I can't afford to eat organic foods," I say, "It's cheaper than chemo."

Thanks for the laugh, Mr. Republican Midwesterner!

He wrote more. And it became clear that it wasn't hilarious at all.

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August 23, 2007 11:19:11 AM PDT

A little background, I ran two Vegi stores a couple years ago. When I was laid off from engineering (thanks to the 9-11 terrorists) a took this chore on. Things were so bad I had to figure some business which would carry my family through the bad economic period. In the end, when sold I cleared a profit but man what a job that was. I was at the store every day--holiday or not from 5am to set up the rack until 8pm to close and balance. I worked alongside my help doing everything from orders and pickups to setting up displays and picking through the fruit for the "spoiled" items(which , by the way could actual taste better than fresh fruit).

Now, most customers did not ask about organic and I only carried organic when it made sense. Customers never understand that if there is a run on some vegi such as lettuce (which is a must have and a loss leader) the price goes up. They would act like you were ripping them off. They never understood that the price is set below or at my cost--they thought I was giving them a story. They also never bought the organic when it was marked up unless I got a ton of it at a good price. My rule was don't be greedy; regardless of the price, sell for no more than a 10% higher than the purchase amount.

Now, as for those who asked about the organic--that was never my goal but it does look better on the shelf to display "organic"--people feel some warm fuzzy. I just never saw that it was more fresh or lasted longer. You would not believe some of the dumb questions people would ask about produce. My favorite story, in short, is about a woman who always picked through things and complained. One day she walked up to me and asked if "the bananas were gassed?" I told her with a grin, "No mam, we usually just hang the bad ones." Of course they are gassed but that was not funny and you need to break up the day with laughter somehow!

My "shallow" knowledge of organics:
My understanding is organic means natural fertilizer so that means manure? So bacteria? I understand the intent and I have tried a lot of organics with no preconceived notion. I like simple things so I am skeptical when someone says "they are fresh..they are better for you...they are more concentrated[in terms of nutrients ]."   

I need evidence from a doctor or a medical journal or some published report. Do you have something like this that is not just marketing. If you know something feel free to copy it to the email or paste it. I know you hate John Stossel but his report on organics made it sound like organics was more likely to contain bacteria. Heck, I know the field workers don't leave the field to use the bathroom and I know that bakers go to work with colds and butchers repack meat sometimes etc. I just have it in my mind in this case that there is more bacteria on organic food now after thinking about the manure thing. By the way, I know about the scandal with his report on organics but that was explained and sounded reasonable regarding his report.

Also, I have tried , for instance 507 salsa (I believe that is the brand) and it was 100% organic and I thought it to be bland. Now that is a recipe issue I did not prefer that taste to say some familiar brand which had more spice to it. So for me--most of the time prepackaged organic would have to be an exception as things stand now because they are akin to buying generic. I like some generic foods such as peanut butter or peanut butter Cliff bars (and I have tried an enormous amount of these different bars). Try the Cliff peanut butter it is good and it says organic on the side. I drink organic soy milk. The thing is that organic soy milk is marketed to health nuts who , for my way of thinking of them (remember Ewel Gibbons--"do you know how many nutrients are present in the ____fill in the blank') draw some line in the sand one day and say "Ok , from now on it is only organics period, throw everything out etc. I don't really feel safer drinking the organic soy milk because I have nothing in hand which scientifically provides me with the motivation to seek it out. I started drinking Soy milk because when I was in Singapore the fridges at the local store were set too low and the milk was not stored at the proper temperature there. I started drinking Organic soy milk because that is the only type Costco offers. My wife hates Soy; my kids love soy but noone says that the organic I am getting now tastes any better or worse. If some other brand was cheaper I might try it.

Now, can you tell me please what was incorrect regarding [my initial comment]?

Fred

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And then I told him this:

I am just going to put the whole thing on my weblog and let people have at it.

Your ideas are so flawed—in your second comment especially, that organics move us into the past—that it is simply stupefying.

And of course, he wrote more, and I am not answering him. I am just publishing him. I am tempted to ask if his "professors" also do not believe in evolution.

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August 23, 2007 12:21:36 PM PDT

Moving backward??

Ok, that is the comment that sets you off? I just meant that we have made advancements and get more crop per square foot or such. We have genetic engineering which has helped resistance to things like temperature etc. We have an abundance and ship food to other countries but I read that if everyone farmed organically we would have a much smaller crop and we would quote"be starved off the planet." Starving is definitely a move backwards. Genetic engineering has crossed a bean from Arizona which was resistant to a very high soil temp and drought conditions with another plant in (I assume Africa?) and made an edible bean which was a source of good nutrition to feed the masses yet could grow in the tough dry conditions.

Another way of saying it:
Heck, I love those engineered tacos from taco bell-- I did not let my emotions get in the way I grabbed them up. Now, I would not go out of my way to eat peanut butter when we had the Alar scare (or was that apples? or both?-- there are so many of these like nitrates from grilling, nitrates from wine etc). But I don't really worry about the shiny wax covered vegis either. Where you around when butter used to be white and they offered a color packet to make it yellow? How many people would have mixed in the color? Yet people now buy and consume butter with the yellow coloring in it I would not consider this a step forward but if the butter could be stored longer and it was tastier that is a step forward. If the cost is that the butter gave me cancer that is not moving forward but I need facts and evidence that the yellow color or the preservatives hurt me or my family.

To best illustrate, I remember my grandma, a very colorful person with strong opinions. She was so opinionated about Pringles as there were preservatives and it just ,"[was] not natural to have potato chips in such a shape." She would scowl (much like my organics customers) when she would come over and see us kids eating Pringles with our sandwiches. We admittedly, loved them and I remember trying to get her to eat them but she would say something insulting towards the Pringles "chemistry department."

One day she came in and started munching on a bowl of potato chips and was not wise to the fact that they were Pringles. "These sure are good." she said, not recognizing that telltale perfect shape. We waited patiently until we saw she had a few and then while she had one in her hand we explained that those were those were full of preservatives. She started buying Pringles--she was a very smart about food but the taste had snatched her. I guess the advancement was more important to her than the fact that she enjoyed a perfect shaped treat. Oh, yes, chips are not good for you in excess but the point is she enjoyed those chemically enhanced super processed chips. I don't think she would have wanted anyone to take the choice away for her to have those Pringles(sorry for the ad).

We move backwards a lot these days such as oxygenated fuel which is costlier, pollutes more to produce the alcohol, and has less energy per gallon than gasoline. Or the battery operated car like the Prius--if it could actually run without the engine on it would actually be battery operated. The Prius actually pollutes more because the process to produce the batteries is ridiculously bad for the environment--BACKWARDS WE GO there.

So my comment "why are you pushing this..?" My commend is there so you have the opportunity to convince me that "organics is the future." There are a lot of good intentioned people who push hard for something and do more damage (look how many people buy the Prius for environmental concerns) than the original agent (such as in the pesticides case). Remember, those well intentioned Irish (I am half Irish) who made their crop lose it's natural genetic diversity. The famine followed; potatoes succumbed because they were not resistant--the resistant potato was discarded to select the best looking potato--good intentions== bad science moving== "backward."

If you don't like that example this same problem occured with corn in the 1800's (I believe but preservatives have not helped preserve my memory from genetics class) right here in America.

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I am certain that Mr. Freid is not alone in his beliefs about the things he has written.

But are professors in universities really teaching that growing organically is B.S.? And who gave him the idea that organic milk is not pasteurized?

I have no response, but I feel very depressed thinking that this mindset is out there, and that it's propogating itself through colleges and universities.

Help, friends.

Comments

[Mike]

Oh man, this is something else. Fortunately, the studies that show the nutritional benefits of organics do exist, from real accredited universities no less (UC Davis, for one). Alas, I don't have them at my fingertips but I may do some searching and come back to post them here.

[Carol]

The incident with organic produce being contaminated with bacteria from manure was a problem with irrigation.
Manure is used on conventional farms as well as organic. An organic farmer would "cook" the manure in a compost pile before using. It is also logical to wash produce before using it.

The Pringles scenario says alot about what consumers really want: Food that tastes GOOD. Most of the conventionally grown produce is grown for storage and shipping and not flavor.
What organic farmers offer is food that has been grown in a caring and nurturing environment by people who care about the environment.
Conventional Farming is like raising kids in a sterile world and not giving them hugs and kisses because you are afraid of bacteria, then giving them all sorts of medications to keep them from getting sick.

[CindyW]

Whoever Fred is, he needs to check the facts just one tiny step deeper before exercising his rights to free speech.

1. Most organic milks you find in the stores ARE pasteurized.

2. The culprit of the spinach outbreak last year: factory-farmed grain-fed cattle (hmmm, let me see, sort of defeats your arguement, doesn't it?). Please, just get the facts straight: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/21/opinion/21planck.html?ex=1316491200&en=80e5e468fa1cdfb0&ei=5088

3. There is a material difference between plant self-generated pesticides (it's called immune system) and chemically synthesized pesticides. Let's not even talk about the harm of synthetic chemicals. Plant self-generated immunity does not result in the gulf of Mexico dead zone, the size of NJ. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/05/0525_050525_deadzone.html
It is from agricultural fertilizers and pesticides.

Unfortunately I just don't have time to point out all the glaring holes in Fred's comments.

[kitchenMage]

Perhaps now that Washington State Univ is offering a degree in Organic Agriculture there will be some more reliable information coming out of colleges. One can hope.